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Travellers of Ireland

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Hello there

I have reverted a recent addition of travellers as an Indigenous people of Ireland. There were three sources but one was an advocacy group for travellers and the other simply copied another source. The problem is that all three sources stated that Travellers probably arrived in Ireland in the middle ages. That doesn't make them Indigenous to Ireland according to the UN definitions.

Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 21:55, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Britannica and our article Irish Travellers. I always have understood them as the only Indigenous minority of the region. I'm assuming someone can find some nice academic sources? Moxy🍁 00:47, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Indigenous" is primarily a political relationship, not racial or based on "when people got there." IIRC, the UN doesn't define what an "Indigenous people" is because it shifts in relation to every continent, culture, and their histories, and creating a single definition of "Indigenous" is almost impossible.
If academic sources describe the Travellers as Indigenous, they should be listed, not based on our own OR. PersusjCP (talk) 01:17, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What?""Who are Indigenous Peoples?" United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues". Global Indigenous Forum. 2015-11-10.
Moxy🍁 01:41, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These articles are about the Irish government's recognition of Irish Travellers as a distinct ethnic group who are indigenous to Ireland. I'm not sure that this is sufficient to make them an Indigenous people in the meaning of the relevant UN declaration. Perhaps if we just say something like "the Irish government has recognised Irish Travellers as a distinct ethnic group who are indigenous to Ireland." (Note the lower case i in indigenous). Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 02:25, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The recognition was about their ethnic minority not about indigenousness....
Moxy🍁 02:39, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The first line of the BBC article states, "The formal recognition of Irish Travellers as an indigenous ethnic minority by the Republic of Ireland has been hailed as a "historic" day."
Please clarify whether or not you want a sentence about Irish travellers included in the article. We can then see what others think. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 03:05, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pls note the "Craith" source above (an academic from the country we're talking about)... it talks about how they're Indigenous and how there's a debate going on about their minority status years before the formal decoration about being a minority. The sentence added was just fine in my view. .... I suggest a Google scholar search for more results. Moxy🍁 03:13, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If they are recognized by the Irish government as an Indigenous people, then they are. What's more to say? That's what the sources say, and that should be reflected on Wikipedia. PersusjCP (talk) 03:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That specifically says the UN seeks to identify, not define Indigenous peoples. Like I said, there is no one definition of what an Indigenous people is, but several criteria that are shared, based on their relationship to other social groups, as the source says. PersusjCP (talk) 03:35, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm inclined not to include them. I note the article says "However, the concept of Indigenous peoples is rarely used in the European context[180] and the UN recognizes very few Indigenous populations within Europe; those which are recognized as such are confined to the far north and far east of the continent", and our article reflects this. Definitions can be discussed forever, but the concept of "indigenous" clearly implies (UN texts etc) a strong element of 'getting there first', which clearly doesn't apply to ITs. Contrary to what Aemilius Adolphin's sources apparently say (top of section) "Travellers probably arrived in Ireland in the middle ages" the current academic consensus, mainly based on genetics, seems to be that they are a group who split off from the main Irish population around the start of the Early Modern period. So no "arrival" at all. Their language appears to be a Gaelic-English patois mix, with no elements inconsistent with this. They are no more, or less, "indigenous" than the main Irish Catholic/Church of Ireland population, except I suppose with a smaller degree of British genetics from post-medieval arrivals. Johnbod (talk) 03:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No guesswork.....first Goggle search result "World Directory of Minorities and Indigenous Peoples". United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. Nov 1, 2023. Travellers are indigenous to Ireland.Moxy🍁 04:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Academic sources and the UN "definition" that Moxy posted has nothing to do with "when" a people got to where they live. It is a political relationship between two groups. As per the UN criteria, Indigenous peoples often:
    • "Self- identification as indigenous peoples at the individual level and accepted by the community as their member.
    • Historical continuity with pre-colonial and/or pre-settler societies
    • Strong link to territories and surrounding natural resources
    • Distinct social, economic or political systems
    • Distinct language, culture and beliefs
    • Form non-dominant groups of society
    • Resolve to maintain and reproduce their ancestral environments and systems as distinctive peoples and communities."
    It has nothing to do with whether or not they got there first. To argue otherwise when reliable sources state so is not a policy-based argument for exclusion, but WP:OR. For that reason, I have added it back in with more sources. They are recognized as an Indigenous people of Ireland.[1]. This does not discredit any "indigeneity" of other Irish people, simply that in the context of Ireland, they are Indigenous. In a broader context, such as that of British colonialism, the Irish are also Indigenous to Ireland, like the Travellers. PersusjCP (talk) 03:52, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's an uphill battle for Indigenous recognition dispite all the sources in article after article ...Janet McCalman (Apr 21, 2015). "What do Indigenous Australians and Irish Travellers have in common?". ABC listen. The story of the Travellers, like that of Indigenous Australians, is one of exclusion......Genetic evidence shows them to be Irish and yet distinct—they have been in Ireland for as long as everyone else but they have always been a separate, roving, landless people. They therefore can be understood as Irish indigenous people.... Moxy🍁 05:01, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yup. PersusjCP (talk) 05:22, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It still is necessary for editors to discuss and critically examine the sources and reach a broad consensus for inclusion in an article. I suggest that citation 185 be removed as it is from a lobby group and is just a copy and paste of citation 184. Perhaps we can find another international body that recognises Irish Travellers as an Indigenous people. The UN Indigenous body or the European Human Rights body would be ideal. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 05:27, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Greeks aren’t native to Anatolia, the Anatolians are.

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How do you even get this wrong? Both Greeks and Turks are colonizers of Anatolia. Youprayteas talk/contribs 09:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It apears the word indigenous, which is something they are sticking to specifically, doesn't mean native anymore. Especially in the European, and as you say, Asia minor context.
It now more or less refers to some historically downtrodden minority group with some measure of a historical claim to the land which deserves some special rights to ameliorate some historical or current wrong. Gelbom (talk) 12:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Short decription

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Hello all

I just reverted an edit which changed the short description to "First inhabitants of an area and their descendants". This isn't correct as the article makes clear.

@Absolutiva Please discuss on Talk and try to reach consensus on a new short description. Also please read the previous discussion on this issue in the Talk archive. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 23:12, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This short description has been exceeded more then 40-60 characters, so I propose as "Peoples who identify as Indigenous". Absolutiva (talk) 23:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would not oppose this but it isn't strictly accurate. Given that all official definitions are complex and involve multiple critera, another possibility is simply not to have a short description. I think another editor proposed this in the last discussion which is in the archives.
It's in Archive four, the discussion headed "Short Description". Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 00:07, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, the description is long, but Indigenous is a very complex identity that isn't easily described by "first inhabitants" or mystifying it only with "people with a special connection to the land". While both of these elements have truth, being reductionist simply doesn't help in this case. PersusjCP (talk) 03:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Very offensive article

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All European peoples are indigenous to Europe. Just as all the African peoples are indigenous to Africa. French are indigenous to France, Italians to Italy, and Flemish to Flanders. 74.96.141.73 (talk) 18:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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